Comments on Hawk Str8Talk: Game Recap - Hawks @ Lakers

@TF, for the first time, we agree 100% on somethin...

2009-11-04T01:40:26.864-05:00

@TF, for the first time, we agree 100% on something, though I think Horford can reach that 17pt level if he was coached to run the floor continually to beat the slower centers in the league. Sorta like Shawn Marion was used in Phoenix. Basically, Al or Josh or both could be used as he was, which was run the floor for 12-14 of those points and then hit the boards and get 4-6 pts a game on putbacks.

That would be fine by me. In fact, tonight's game vs. the Blazers is what i want to see from Josh every game. It isn't perfect basketball - it's active basketball.

You have to admot that the Hawks have been giving ...

2009-11-04T00:49:03.979-05:00

You have to admot that the Hawks have been giving trying to make Horford a bigger part of the offense so far this season.

Horford has averaged 12 spg so far hitting 6 pg. Not a great sign for people that think he can be dominant on the blocks considering a a good chunk of his shots are still putbacks and easy dunks.

Plus I've watched all of those games, and not once have I seen a play that made me think he can be that kind of scorer. He is still very good but Kevin McHale he isn't.

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2009-11-03T19:55:39.500-05:00

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@Jesse, I'll keep it short. First, if I said NEVE...

2009-11-03T15:37:10.562-05:00

@Jesse, I'll keep it short. First, if I said NEVER SHOWING ANYTHING - that would be a gross overstatement - I have said I don't see it on the court, but that I think he has potential. Now, a better way of saying it was I don't think his production hasn't matched up to the hype about his game and his potential. And maybe it won't ever do it or maybe it's the Hawks system.

So, yes, I flipped a little based on CC's post. I'm tired of dumbing down my expectations. Just perform and shut up. I think that if he is who they say he is - he can pull down 17 and 12 and I'm not gonna make any more excuses about why it's not happening.

Yes, I got all that scheme and shots to go around stuff and it factors in, but I'm not saying that everyone is gonna break out. Bibby can't score as much, Marvin isn't gonna do it. So, I think that 17 and 12 for a dominant, 'we think he's an All-Star center in the East..Rick Sund's words' center isn't too much to ask. That's all. Do I think it's possible? Yes. Do I think it's probable based solely on what I've seen from Al (forgetting everything else)? No. But I'd like to be wrong and see it...

Well, now your statements are flipping back and fo...

2009-11-03T14:01:39.388-05:00

Well, now your statements are flipping back and forth on if you think he can be a 15 and 10 guy or not while simultaneously adjusting the bar for where you think his ceiling is. First you said he had shown you nothing to indicate that he could be that or more, at which point I listed many games where Horford very clearly performed at a 15/10 clip with close to ten separate occassions in last year alone where he pushed nearly 20/12, give or take a few.

In your comment above you just stated "I'm certain that Al can average 17 and 12" but now you either don't or you are changing exactly what you expect from him. You say dominant, but where's your definition of dominant? Is it simply a set number like 20/10, or maybe 25/15? Or is it that you are wanting him to be something he can't be in this sytem, which is the focal point and to just take over games constantly?

If it's the latter of the two, then your expectation are completely unrealistic because we have too much talent and skill on this team for any one player to be it every single game. A few years ago that would have been a reasonable expectation from say JJ or even Josh Smith because that's all we had, but now we have many talents that could easily get hot for a night and be the spear tip for our offense. There's only so much ball to go around and only so many possessions to score in and every night we could have a different dominant player.

So, I'm just trying to figure out what exactly you want or expect from Horford because frankly you got me confused man.

@Jesse, the JJ part is new. My desire for Al Horf...

2009-11-03T12:28:04.955-05:00

@Jesse, the JJ part is new. My desire for Al Horford to stop just being a solid player and growing into a stud started early last year. I've been saying to everyone - I don't think he's as great as people tout him to be. I think it's great he's dependable and consistent, but I'd rather have the swings of Osh where I can see his sublime play mixed with head scratching bad play, so I know he has it in him, but Al's had only 3 truly dominant games in 2 years - and that just ain't gonna cut it.

Wow, if I knew all I had to do was compain about J...

2009-11-03T12:00:47.409-05:00

Wow, if I knew all I had to do was compain about JJ a little to get you to come around on Horford, I would have done that by now. Welcome aboard sir!

Haha, no really though, I agree completely with CoCo on this JJ item, and it's so true. It's kinda what I was trying to get at myself. JJ hasn't been this agressive with his post-game comments before, but now that every Hawks game has an impact on his future, whether directly or indirectly, and he suddenly becomes this strong vocal leader? Like I said, that's fine if it's legit, but he needs to look in that mirror every so often and realize that when you point fingers, sometimes there's a couple pointing right back at you.

You know what - that's a great point. You have ma...

2009-11-03T10:28:58.915-05:00

You know what - that's a great point. You have made me put Joe Johnson on the list with Al Horford. They are the least criticized while doing the least relative to what you expect. I expect Joe to be the damn man. I expect Al to produce...enough with the coach, the scheme, etc. Just do the damn thing and if you are being held back - go to Rick Sund and say that. That's what Jordan did to Doug Collins. Said it like Mike Singletary 'can't win titles with him, nope, can't do it' and poof, he was gone.

I'm on board now - we will ask Joe and Al to step their asses up. Yes, Marvin and Osh need to do more, but we don't know if they can do more. I'm certain that Joe can play like that 1st quarter more and I'm certain that Al can average 17 and 12. Now, I'm gonna expect it. Period. Thanks C..no more NICE GUY ;)

Joe has to take a big chunk of the responsibility ...

2009-11-03T10:19:47.019-05:00

Joe has to take a big chunk of the responsibility for the team being soft. He's our Kobe, our LeBron, our Wade. Kobe took it personally that Joe came out on fire and he lit his a** up. Joe needs to redirect some of his frustrations. I'm always begging for Joe to have those "there's no way in hell we're losing this game on my watch" games and every now and then he does. I'd like to see him have that mindset more than once every blue moon. He wants to be paid like Kobe, Bron and Wade then he needs to consistently show the ability to completely take over a game the way they do. Put the onus on himself which quite frankly he doesn't really do. Joe is the least criticized person on the team which is really funny because other superstars get the bulk of the criticism whether its their "fault" their team is struggling or not. When the Hawks struggle it's not about what Joe Johnson isn't doing, it's about what everyone else isn't doing. WE all know wins and losses are a team effort, but he's the max player on this team, yet he seems to be the one player it's off limits to say something negative about. We always preface it with some sort of excuse. The point of this long ass ramble is, step up! If you wanna be the man, be the damn man and take it upon yourself to right what is wrong. All that being said, I love Joe. lol

I'm not sure I'd say it's passive for Joe. He was...

2009-11-03T09:21:35.618-05:00

I'm not sure I'd say it's passive for Joe. He was pretty clear - we're soft! To say that after Game 3 or to speak up after a preseason game, that's pretty aggressive. Now, you're right - what are we going to do differently to follow up on that..i'm not sure, but it certainly allows for 2 things...1) more specific items that need to be addressed by players and 2) Rick Sund to understand that if things don't change, Joe may leave and that goes directly to the coach in my opinion.

Shoot, if Joe would just read my blog, he'd realize that I've been saying we're soft for years. And not - you're a punk soft, just that if we get hit in the mouth by a team with skill - we're gonna lose. Period. And come playoff time, we're gonna get hit in the mouth, but unlike the Rockets or Bulls last season - we're gonna say ... uh, ok - let's try this again in the next game vs. dig and fight. I think Joe is highlighting that fact. Now, if we don't do anything about that - at least, no one can say they didn't actively know that it was a problem. I've had problems in the past with even the knowledge that they understand what their problems are.

Woody and Joe are normally - hey, we won, so the defense and offense had to do something right OR we lost, so we played selfish, horrible, etc. It was normally pretty predictable regardless of what happened on the court. At least this time, no one said - well, we fought back to 8 points and it was a road game or it was the champs. That kind of excuse making is what makes me sick.

I still see what Joe is saying as passive excuse m...

2009-11-03T08:36:31.617-05:00

I still see what Joe is saying as passive excuse making. He's not offering any solutions. Hell, they've had the same problems he spoke of after that Lakers loss for years and they all seem to be able to point out the problems, but no one does anything to change it. Don't speak about it, be about it.

Agreed. I'm all for a more vocal JJ, but this is ...

2009-11-03T08:21:35.570-05:00

Agreed. I'm all for a more vocal JJ, but this is definitely an item to watch as the season progress.

I hear you, but I think I'm going to go with more ...

2009-11-02T14:16:12.547-05:00

I hear you, but I think I'm going to go with more verbal, urgent feedback this year vs. the passive excuse making of years past. I acknowledge that it could be an issue, but I'm hoping that his tenure and relationships with the players affords him the ability to hold everyone accountable privately and publicly without a tremendous amount of fall out.

So, yes, I'm sure all of that could happen, but I also know that players tend to separate business and game play. I'd rather have us on the trigger quickly saying that our effort is not acceptable now than waiting until midseason to speak truth to the team. I'll revisit my thoughts on this at the quarter mark of the season.

W/R/T your 'Final Notes' While I would normally a...

2009-11-02T13:40:55.970-05:00

W/R/T your 'Final Notes'

While I would normally agree 100%, I have this sinking feeling that the current circumstances involving JJ and the Hawks might make this not exactly the best year to start exerting his minimal leadership skills as it relates to post-game comments, specifically calling players and the team out. You have a high paid and highly skilled player who up until recently had been THE MAN as far as scoring and this team was concerned. The Hawks were all JJ and not much else. Now that isn't exactly true as Josh and Al can score when there is a solid offense being run instead of the ISO-Joe.

Not only that, but when a very good deal was offered to JJ, he turned it down. There's only two reasons for this, either he A) thinks that he is worth more that what was offered, or B) he doesn't think the Hawks can continue to improve enough to contend for a ring. This could easily be miscontrued as though he thinks he is better than the other players regardless of which reason he chose to turn down the offer.

All of these things combined could make his post-game comments after a loss quickly put a crack into the overall team chemistry and create a divide amongst the players. In most cases a calling out of the team after a bad loss is needed, but if he's going to get into a habit of it after every loss and continue to use such strong words, this could get ugly quick. I don't think that's something anyone wants, player, coach, management, or fan.